Wikipedia talk:Good article criteria

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Contents 1 Proposal to amend criteria 2 Using inappropriate criteria for speedy review fails 3 GA = sourced with primary sources??? 4 Proposal: criticism and controversies sections 5 Using an old book as a reference

[edit] Proposal to amend criteria

I think that point 3 of the GAR criteria defeats the object of encouraging the nomination of short articles. The criterion presently states:

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[3] and

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Although the footnote clarifies that short articles are welcome, it is a footnote and these are not always read. The main problem is the title "broad in its coverage". It is clear that some people who undertake reviews think this means the article must be lengthy. At the same time, broadness contradicts the stated aim of focus. If you are focused, you are not looking at the big picture.

I would replace "broad in its coverage" with something like "focused upon the subject" and bring the salient points in the footnote up into the criterion itself.

The criteria must make clear that GAR caters for short articles. At present, the process fails miserably. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 20:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I think I disagree with your use of the word "scope". I have never seen a GA reviewer criticise an article because of its limited scope. But whatever an article's scope is, its major topics must be covered; focus has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Take a look at Space Science Fiction Magazine for instance, an article that has failed to reach FA, but would, in my opinion easily pass at GAN. Or, to put it another way, if an article like that one couldn't pass at GAN, then the GA vision has gone horribly wrong. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've removed my reference to scope as it is misleading. An article should cover all of its scope topics but, if the scope is limited by lack of surviving or available data, then there will be few topics and a reviewer must not expect to read a long article. The criterion must express the idea that the subject's major topics, as you say, have been covered in full. There is a big difference between sufficient coverage and broad coverage. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 05:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much interest in this although I could take the silence to mean that no one objects to the proposal. If there is no opposition by next weekend, I will make the proposed change. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 06:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Note. The discussion to this point was on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles but I think it is more appropriate to this page so I have copied it here. I haven't yet edited criterion #3 as I would like to see more comments by GA reviewers. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 10:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Malleus: the current broadness criterion is fine. It's long-standing and most experienced reviewers know what it means by now. If there are editors who misunderstand it, they should be politely corrected. Geometry guy 11:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

This contradicts the site's disambiguation policy. We should not be reactively correcting editors who misunderstand something, we should be proactively seeking to disambiguate so that the risk of misunderstanding is reduced. And just because something is "long-standing" does not mean it is right. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 07:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

No, disambiguation policy refers to the main article space, not project space, where consensus is the modus vivendi. Geometry guy 00:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The ambiguity in the criterion is sometimes troublesome, but (1) I don't think "Focused upon the subject" is any "better" than the current verbiage in addressing issues of article length, and (2) the problem exists because some reviewers pass judgment by only reading the criterion title ("Broad in its coverage") without reading what that means (i.e., "(1) it addresses the main aspects of the topic, and (2) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail, and (footnote) This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics." Best regards --Eustress (talk) 14:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC) (note: copied from WT:GA).

Okay, I'll put it to the test but I'm not convinced. I've re-nominated an article that was failed previously simply because it was deemed too short. I don't mind if it fails because it needs more citations or, indeed, if it does not cover something that clearly is in scope; but the GAR process is supposed to welcome articles that are short by necessity because of unavailable data. I still think that some reviewers will be misled by a phrase like "(a good article is) broad in its coverage" to expect a lengthy article. I accept that the wording of points (a) and (b) within the criterion are adequate but I believe the title of the criterion needs to be amended. I agree with Malleus' statement that "its major topics must be covered" and I think we should reword the title of the criterion along those lines: e.g., "(a good article is) sufficient in its coverage". ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 14:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I have read this topic with interest as I have just been reading the criteria page and it occurred to me then that the word "broad" is somewhat dubious. I would change it to "sufficient" in its sense of "ample" or "adequate". An article that is narrow in coverage can have ample content and meet the requirements of addressing all main topics and remaining focused. I should point out that I'm a new member and so not up to speed yet, but it does seem sensible to me to make this change. --KenKt (talk) 14:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Ample content is what I was trying to get across. We need to ensure that the article covers its scope, which may be very narrow, without bringing in unnecessary padding. Hence a short article will have as much chance at GA review as a long one. The other point I made was that the bit in the footnote ought to be part of the criterion, perhaps as a sub-section (c). Any thoughts on that? ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 20:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the footnote does make clear that length does not disqualify any article. The problem is the word "broad", in my opinion. By the way, which is the article that you have re-nominated? Although I am a new member I am not without review experience and I will look at it if you will permit me. But I am reviewing another article and that must take priority. --KenKt (talk) 21:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll have to nominate that article again so I'll let you know about it, but thanks for your offer. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 07:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I understand the difficulties with the term "broad" - though "ample" holds pretty much the same meaning. Perhaps "appropriate" is a more helpful term? I tend to feel that the more narrow the intersection of the topic, the greater the specifics of the details should be. When contestants for Mastermind (TV series) select broad topics (World War 1), they get broad questions ("What date did the USA declare war on Germany?"), but if they select a narrow topic (The 369th Infantry Regiment in World War 1) they get more specific questions (what colour were the regiments belts?).

Narrow topics demand greater focus on small details. It is a different type of coverage, and both the editors and the reviewers should be paying attention to that.

I am not convinced that selecting a narrow intersection for which there is not much available material, and then producing a very short article and saying "There is no more information to be found so this is broad enough," is a genuine rationale for a Good Article. If there is not enough material to create a detailed article that satisfies the interest of the general reader, then perhaps the article will never become a Good Article - and if the article is very short, it might be more appropriate for it to be taken back into the most appropriate parent article. I'm not against short articles, but I am against flimsy articles that don't answer the basic questions of What and Why and When and How and Where and Who. The example given above of Space Science Fiction Magazine is interesting as it is certainly quite borderline in that it barely manages to answer all these questions, and fails in some respects. I would expect from such a narrow topic to be at least told in which of the two issues Clarke's "Critical Mass" was published. If you image somebody doing some research on Clarke and wishing to find out the first American publication of the story, they might expect to discover that fact in a Wikipedia article on the magazine in which the story appeared (regardless of the article being GA status or not). I don't think it is clear that Space Science Fiction Magazine is a GA, and is perhaps not a good example to use of a short article fulfilling the requirements of "broad coverage" (or "appropriate coverage"). SilkTork *^YES! 13:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What and Why and When and How and Where and Who is appropriate for a newpaper article, but not necessarily for an encyclopedia article, at least in my opinion. It's very easy to imagine unanswered questions after reading any article, but it's not the purpose of an encyclopedia to answer every conceivable question. I still think that "broad" is clear enough, but interestingly the FA criteria were recently changed slightly to include "... and places the subject in context", which I think is maybe at the heart of what you're saying Silktork. That might make a useful addition to the GA criteria as well. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that an encyclopedia is a general reference work and does not seek to be a textbook on a subject. However, definitions of encyclopedia generally use the word "comprehensive". It would normally be considered that an encyclopedia article on a topic would answer more questions than a newspaper article, and would aim to give a rounded knowledge. The actual depth of detail would depend on the exact focus of the article. History of the world would have a broader less detailed focus than S. A. Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition of 1897, which is a very specific topic, and the article goes into admirable detail and answers all the questions in What and Why and When and How and Where and Who. I wouldn't expect a GA article to have that level of coverage, but I would expect a GA article to deliver a bit.

I like "places the subject in context", but that is perhaps a demand too far for a GA article. That requires a higher level of writing, research and organisation. I wouldn't wish to add more demands on GA. I paused to consider that perhaps "shows an awareness of context" might be less demanding, and would add value, but I think it is already demanding enough that we are asking people to address the main aspects of the topic. And I don't think that people are understanding the demands of that requirement. Some people are interpreting "main aspects of the topic" as "what can be found during a Google search on a wet Wednesday afternoon" - such as a search for information on Matchbooks for a new article History of match books, and being pleased that so little can be found, as that means that all the main aspects of the topic are covered! A lack of information is simply a lack of information, it's not a free punt into the end zone. SilkTork *^YES! 23:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

"Comprehensive" for encyclopedias refers to the coverage of every branch of knowledge, not the comprehensive nature of each article. However, I agree with you that "addresses the main aspects of the topic" is a demanding requirement. However, the main requirement that GA reviewers miss is that the material in the article can be attributed to a reliable source. That isn't a matter of looking for uncited sentences, but checking (oh my god) that the sources actually say the same things as the article. That is really hard work. I'd welcome any proposal to improve the criteria to encourage it. Geometry guy 00:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

As the one who "reframed" another editor's suggestions for modification of the FA criteria into "places the subject in context", my meaning was to present the major aspects of a topic and not spend major article space on "offshoots". I actually got the idea for the FA modification from the GA criteria which I thought were clear in a way that the FA criteria were not. How it is interpreted by FA evaluators is another issue. I personally thing the GA criteria are fine when followed. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Using inappropriate criteria for speedy review fails

I'm very concerned about the apparent tendency of some Good article reviewers to, in effect, perform reviews using criteria more appropriate for Featured article reviews, and then speedily failing an article without providing the nominator any opportunity to revise the article or respond to criticisms.

For example, applying every last detail of form in the Manual of Style during a Good article review, when the instructions for Good article reviews specifically limit the application to a few areas, and applying MoS policy guidance suggestions for length of lead sections as if they were mandatory in every instance seems inapproptiate and unfair.

There also appears to be a tendency among some reviewers, but not all, to identify every last little detail in an article that might be changed to improve it, without saying what the minimum amount of change is that is necessary for it to pass a good article review. This does little but confuse the nominator.

It appears the guidance provided about how to apply a limited review for a decent article is too subtle for some reviewers to understand--even some experienced reviewers--resulting in some injustice to the nominator.

The result is that some reviews appear to be arbitrary, capricious, arrogant, and unreasonable. I don't think this helps build an encyclopedia.

Personally, I am now deterred from ever again nominating an article for Good article review, despite the fact I have created many new articles and have brought several of them successfully through Good article review.

The guidance needs to be improved so there is more consistency in its application from one reviewer to the next, and there should be some explicit discouragement of reviewers overdoing it. Otherwise, it merely drives good editors away, and discourages them from bringing their efforts to Good article review. The result of this is fewer Good articles than might otherwise be written if reviews were done better.

The manner in which the good article review criteria are currently stated leads to some confusion of both reviewers and nominators during its application. The criteria need to be revised to: (1) move the text of footnote [1] into the body of the criteria so it will not be overlooked, and (2) state clearly that reviewers need to clearly separate their comments into two categories, (a) changes that must be made to earn a good article pass, and (b) changes that are desirable in an article but not required to earn a good article pass.

These are not really changes in the criteria, but merely clarifications of the existing criteria which hopefully will make good article reviews more useful to the nominator and the immediate task at hand, and assist them in appearing to be fair.

A third issue should also be considered: Creating a minimum period for "holds" resulting from comprehensive reviews that will allow a nominating editor to determine if the mandated changes can be made in that period of time. This would not change the "quickfail" procedure because it would be limited to comprehensive reviews.

It's about fairness and courtesy, and there appears to be no real need to rush these things, if they are unrelated to the quickfail process. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 16:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

This comment may not be what it appears to be. The editor above appears to have taken considerable offence about an article submitted for WP:GAN that was "failed". What is written above, appears to be part of a tirade that appears across Talk:Norman I. Wengert/GA1, Talk:Norman I. Wengert, Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Using inappropriate criteria for quick fail reviews and now here. It seems to me that the reviewer, who is experienced in reviewing WP:GANs (and also in submitting articles to WP:GAN), made a decision which the nominator is unable to accept. The nominator then attempts to carry out an analysis of the reviewers comments (see Talk:Norman I. Wengert/GA1), rejecting them as not, in the nominator's opinion, being required under WP:MOS. The nominator then goes on to enter a long tirade across all three pages which is little more than a character assassination of the reviewer (which is not me - I hasten to add). The nominator asks for "fairness", but appears unable to extend it to fellow authors, especially WP:GAN reviewers.

Having looked at the article, it has been considerably improved since it failed GA on 11 March 2009. I, personally, would not passed it on the 11 March 2009; I probably would have put it On Hold. The WP:lead was clearly inadequate, despite what the nominator claims. However, if I had suffered the character assassination that the this nominator dishes out, I would have a very strong inclination to never ever "pass" any WP:GANs arising from that source. Having said that, I would probably pass the article as it stands now if I came across it at WP:GAN. It seems to me that the solution to the problem is for the nominator to treat any potential and actual reviewers with the same fairness that the nominator expects to receive. Changes demanded by an aggrieved WP:GAN nominator should not be considered hastily.Pyrotec (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Not so. This comment is exactly what it appears to be. I'm not asking for action against any GA reviewer. I'm asking for clarification of a confusing policy. Pyrotec, did you assume good faith when you wrote the comment above? Please don't fan the flames of a separate controversy.

I treat everyone with respect who treats me with repect. If the article had been put on hold at all, the situation would be different, but it was NOT put on hold. It was immediately failed without any hold. And you appear to be saying that enough changes have been made in three days to make it GA, despite the fact the reviewer concluded those changes could not be made in a brief hold period. Thank you for recognizing at least that much of the problem. All I ask for is fundamental fairness and a little common courtesy. YES, I routinely provide the same to others who treat me the same way. Actually, I go further than that, and routinely provide edits to articles I review right alongside the nominator. This reviewer did not do either.

That reviewer did not even change a period to a comma to deal with one of his criticisms (there is a specific example of that in the list). It would have been easier to make the change than make the criticism. But apparently he would rather criticize than help out. He did not provide any assistance whatsoever, and did not allow a HOLD period for ANY changes to be made.

But that is not the point of this discussion. The point is: can the guidance be improved to avoid this kind of situation in future? I think it can, and I have made a proposal about how to do it. Please comment on the proposal, constructively if possible. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I can do so. Proposal (1) to move the text of footnote [1] could be implemented if there is evidence that reviewers have been failing articles for non-GA MOS issues alone. I haven't seen any such evidence, but would be happy to be enlightened. Proposal (2) has nothing to do with the GA criteria, but could be raised at WT:Reviewing good articles. Geometry guy 22:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

To the contrary, there was ample evidence on the article nominations talk page in thier comments that other reviewers had experienced or witnessed similar difficulties. But I understand you wish not to be bothered with such triffles as fundamental fairness towards other editors who act in good faith, so I will not pursue the matter further. You are judge and jury unto yourselves, and I guess that is enough for you. So what if injustices to editors who put in great effort for Wikipedia continues? We are all expendable, right? You will do as you wish, no matter the consequences to others. Farewell. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 03:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, regarding proposal (1) to move the footnote up - I think this would be helpful. I nominated Nancy Drew for a GA review (review is still in progress) and was confused by the reviewer's first comment that the citation style needed to be changed, as my first citation style is listed on WP:CITE. After thinking about it I decided that this was a suggestion to make the article better, rather than a pass/fail criterion, as it seemed to be phrased. Which leads me to proposal (2), about making more clear which criteria are pass/fail and which are to make the article better - I am happy to make all suggested changes, but I am curious as to which ones take priority - especially as my Spring Break is now over and I'll have less time to devote to this or any other article. Best, Ricardiana (talk) 21:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] GA = sourced with primary sources???

Hi, I just came across DeviantArt, and noticed that (1) it is sourced almost entirely with sources from deviantart.com and (2) it is classed as GA. Is this appropriate? It doesn't seem so. If not, where should I suggest a GAReview? Aleta ^Sing 14:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

In the case of this particular article, I am surprised it was promoted. I would supper putting it up for review. There's problems that go beyond the primary source issue (a GA can't use primary sources that often) Wizardman 16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've created a community reassessment page at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/DeviantArt/1. Aleta ^Sing 17:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source, so a combination of primary and secondary sources should be used — certainly not primary only. — Deckiller 22:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal: criticism and controversies sections

Let me just express my personal belief that the criticism and controversies sections that pervade Wikipedia (especially biographies) are unencyclopedic. Try reading Britannica, Encarta, or World Book sometime. They never have criticism and controversies sections. Only Wikipedia does. Why? I believe they exist in Wikipedia because they attract editors who either (a) love scandal, or (b) have an agenda (often political) they want to push in an encyclopedia. Quite often, criticism and controversies sections take up a disproportionate portion of an article. I propose minimal or non-existent criticism and controversies sections as a criteria for good article status. By having minimal or non-existent criticism and controversies sections as a criteria, it would allow such sections to exist in those rare articles where they are truly warranted, but would give editors a strong incentive to remove frivolous criticism. Note that this proposal goes beyond just having WP:RS and WP:NPOV as criteria. Frivolous criticism and controversies are often backed up by reliable sources. That's because frivolity and reliability are entirely different concepts. NPOV, meanwhile, is often used as an excuse to add a criticism and controversy section. The existence of the section then entices editors to expand it, in order to fill in any missing criticism and controversies. Discouraging, but not banning, these sections are a great way to trim the fat. --JHP (talk) 06:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Using an old book as a reference

We're working on wikipedia-spotlight on Marco Polo but we don't have many reliable source on the web. We have however access to the 1947 edition of Venetian adventurer By Henry Hersch Hart which describes Marco's life in a very scientific and scholarly level. It has also received a good review and is cited by many other books. The problem is that the book was written in 1947 and I was wondering if that would pose a problem when nominating the article for GA or FA, thank you.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

For a subject like that, I wouldn't think so. The question is essentially how much scholarship on a given subject has advanced in the intervening years. If you were using a 1947 book to write an article on, say, homosexuality, you'd probably be in some trouble. But without knowing much about Marco Polo, my initial reaction is that it shouldn't be a problem there. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)