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Talk:Same-sex marriage

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Contents

[edit] "Children do best when raised by their biological parents in a low-conflict marriage" removed

I've removed misleading sentence and refference, since the amici curiae brief of the American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, and National Association of Social Workers in support of the parties challenging the marriage exclusion (filled in September 2007) states:

There Is No Scientific Basis for Concluding That Gay and Lesbian Parents Are Any Less Fit or Capable Than Heterosexual Parents, or That Their Children Are Any Less Psychologically Healthy and Well Adjusted.
Although it is sometimes asserted in policy debates that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same-sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children raised by heterosexual parents, those assertions find no support in the scientific research literature.
When comparing the outcomes of different forms of parenting, it is critically important to make appropriate comparisons. For example, differences resulting from the number of parents in a household cannot be attributed to the parents’ gender or sexual orientation. Research in households with heterosexual parents generally indicates that – all else being equal – children do better with two parenting figures rather than just one. The specific research studies typically cited in this regard do not address parents’ sexual orientation, however, and therefore do not permit any conclusions to be drawn about the consequences of having heterosexual versus nonheterosexual parents, or two parents who are of the same versus different genders.
Indeed, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has been remarkably consistent in showing that lesbian and gay parents are every bit as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Empirical research over the past two decades has failed to find any meaningful differences in the parenting ability of lesbian and gay parents compared to heterosexual parents.
Amici emphasize that the abilities of gay and lesbian persons as parents and the positive outcomes for their children are not areas where credible scientific researchers disagree. Thus, after careful scrutiny of decades of research in this area, the American Psychological Association concluded in its recent Resolution on Sexual Orientation, Parents, and Children: “There is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation: Lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children” and that “Research has shown that adjustment, development, and psychological well-being of children is unrelated to parental sexual orientation and that the children of lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those of heterosexual parents to flourish.” And the National Association of Social Workers has determined that “The most striking feature of the research on lesbian mothers, gay fathers, and their children is the absence of pathological findings. The second most striking feature is how similar the groups of gay and lesbian parents and their children are to heterosexual parents and their children that were included in the studies.” Most recently, in adopting an official Position Statement in support of legal recognition of same-sex civil marriage, the American Psychiatric Association observed that “no research has shown that the children raised by lesbians and gay men are less well adjusted than those reared within heterosexual relationships.”
These statements by the leading associations of experts in this area reflect professional consensus that children raised by lesbian or gay parents do not differ in any important respects from those raised by heterosexual parents. No credible empirical research suggests otherwise. It is the quality of parenting that predicts children’s psychological and social adjustment, not the parents’ sexual orientation or gender. [1]

--Destinero (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There are several flaws in your argument. First of all, sexual orientation has nothing to do with the argument. Many gay men and women raised children in a mixed-orientation marriage. Saying a gay man can be a good father does not mean he is an equal and equivalent replacement for a mother. The APA is right, quality is more important than gender, but that does not mean that gender is not important. Second, you assume that these organizations are the supreme dictator in terms of defining what is best for the kids. Just because one group makes one statement, does not mean that all other conflicting statements must be removed from wikipedia. Wikipedia reports facts. It does not take sides with one organization or the other. I am interested in what other countries think about the unique role of fathers in the raising of children.Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:12, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
The cited source was this, but this source doesn't seem to be looking at any studies which compare straight couples with gay couples at all, so I'm not sure why it was used to support this statement. It compares straight married couples with straight single parents and straight divorced parents, but since this article is about same-sex marriage, this source doesn't seem relevant to this article. I'm not aware of any studies that have shown that the children of married straight parents have more positive outcomes than the children of gay parents in long-term relationships or marriages; are you? The APA, as the preeminent professional organization regarding mental health in the United States, does represent a broad consensus of thought, but I'd have no problem reporting studies that came to a different conclusion if such studies exist. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
You are wrong. There are flaws in your argument, not in mine: "Although it is sometimes asserted in policy debates that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same-sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children raised by heterosexual parents, those assertions find no support in the scientific research literature. When comparing the outcomes of different forms of parenting, it is critically important to make appropriate comparisons. For example, differences resulting from the number of parents in a household cannot be attributed to the parents’ gender or sexual orientation. Research in households with heterosexual parents generally indicates that – all else being equal – children do better with two parenting figures rather than just one. The specific research studies typically cited in this regard do not address parents’ sexual orientation, however, and therefore do not permit any conclusions to be drawn about the consequences of having heterosexual versus nonheterosexual parents, or two parents who are of the same versus different genders." (emphasis mine) [1]
These organizations represents facts based on scientific research literature in the most reputable peer reviewed journals. There is none more (widely considered) credible and reliable organizations than those referenced in LGBT parenting article, which provides the basis for the relevant section in this article about Same-Sex marriage. --Destinero (talk) 14:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Neologism concern

Someone flagged this page as a possible neologism. Given that the phrase is used in both American Heritage and Blacks Law dictionaries[2] I think it's safe. It's not defined there, but that just reflects the dictionaries' belief that it is clear in context.Nat Gertler (talk) 01:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] India legalises homosexuality

In July 2009 there have been certain changes in India regarding laws pertaining to homosexuality. As India is a large country, this signifies growing tolerance towards homosexuality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohitbhatia (talk • contribs) 06:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Debates over terminology

Before I get to the substantive content of my post, I'd like to say a few things about my intentions. Clearly, the discussion over "same-sex marriage" is very controversial, and thus a neutral point of view is a very slippery goal. I know I am influenced by my opinions on the subject, but I am trying to present an argument that stands regardless of point of view. This section may be most relevant to the situation in the US. I realize that I am resorting to generalizations in this subject, but unless my characterizations are not generally true, for the sake of argument, I'd like to set aside exceptions to the rule.

One significant source of controversy on this issue is the difference of opinion between proponents of "same-sex marriage" and proponents of "traditional marriage". I think it's safe to say that most proponents of "traditional marriage" would contend that the proper definition of "marriage" does not include unions between same-sex couples. This is evidenced by recent legislation in various (US) states, to add to statue or constitution a legal definition limiting marriage to heterosexual unions. Again, I assume most proponents of "traditional marriage" would claim that this is the proper definition of marriage, and that to legally define it is not to change to the definition, but to reinforce the correct definition. Without getting into specific statistics, a significant percentage of the population of the US, at least, support a "traditional" definition of marriage, and would view the phrase "same-sex marriage" as a contradiction-in-terms (ie, an oxymoron). I am aware of the concept of "scare quotes" or "sneer quotes", but there are legitimate uses of quotation marks to indicate the debatable nature of a term. For example, I have made every effort to be balanced in my usage of quotes in this discussion - I am equally ready to put quotes around the terms "same-sex marriage" and "traditional marriage", acknowledging that a large number of people would debate the validity of each. Given the amount of controversy over the very definition of the term, doesn't it show a bias to use the term "marriage" to apply to a same-sex union, without some indication of the questionable nature of the terminology? In a context where there is a significant consensus on the usage of the term, no such indication would be necessary. But in the light of the support (in most states either a majority or a large minority) for "traditional marriage" legislation, I contend that there is no such consensus, one way or the other. (I know I haven't defined what would constitute a "significant consensus", but I don't think one exists, at least in the US, for any reasonable definition of consensus). I'm not sure quotes are the right way to indicate the questionable nature of the term, given the sensitivity to the issue, and the potential for implied derision, but I'm not sure there is a better way. In my opinion, inserting the phrase "so-called" would not only be grammatically very awkward in many instances, it would also be more offensive. I don't think it is reasonable to acknowledge the significant debate over the validity of the terminology, and then to go ahead and use the term as if the argument has already been decided. Patrollerus01 (talk) 15:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The question of terminology is hardly overlooked in the article; it is granted a significant section. So it's not as if someone reading through the article would be unaware of controversy to it. When used as a whole phrase, the meaning of same-sex marriage is understood, and it is common in legitimate media. The modifier same-sex can, like many modifiers, be read as discussing something similar to but not the same as some traditional usage of the term; we do not use scare quotes in statutory rape or white chocolate or guinea pig, for example. "Marriage", like many words, has a multitude of definitions, and the objections are only based on one definition. If we say we're a little blue today, we do not see the need to put "blue" in quotes even though we are not tinted that color. Same-sex marriage exists with marriage as legally defined in various locations; it also exists in the sense of bringing two things together (I doubt many folks hear about a new product as a marriage of luxury and convenience and wonder which one is the girl.)
And as a side note: it seems to me that most of the proponents of same-sex marriage are also proponents of traditional marriage; I know of no one trying to make gay marriage mandatory. Nat Gertler (talk) 17:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Same sex marriage is a neologism

The article states that the first time the word marriage was extended to include same-sex marriages is in 2001. If there is a political movement to redefine marriage, it is with the same-sex marriage crowd, not the traditional marriage crowd. Perusing any dictionary from 2000, 1990, going back to the start of hte english language will show that. The POV is the attempt to force a redefinition of the term marriage. Mrdthree (talk) 05:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the article does not say that the first time the word marriage was extended to include same-sex marriages is in 2001. The article does say that the first time the legal status of marriage was so extended was 2001, but the article also notes that the term can refer to socially recognized marriages rather than just legal ones. And something does not need to actually exist for the term to be in use and relevant; the term "same-sex marriage" makes dictionary appearance before 2001. If we do not build the first starship until 3058, the term starship will not be a neologism then, as we will have been using it for centuries, even if the thing we were discussing was a theoretical item rather than an actual one. The phrase same-sex marriage has entered into common use; even if it's to describe something people believe cannot or should not exist, that aspect doesn't make it a neologism. Nat Gertler (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
In the main the history of "same-sex marriage" is being sourced to languages other than English. Most of the historians are activists who are doing the translation for us (e.g. Foucault). I want proof that in these other languages they use the same word for same-sex unions that they do for marriage. Meaning marriage in the traditional sense; the union of man and woman [1] (the same definition found in (1950, 1990, and 2000). Otherwise you are making the argument that we should refer to same-sex unions as marriages, not discussing the history of same-sex marriages. Mrdthree (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The meaning of marriage is covering both opposite sex and same-sex couples. Here is your favorite Webster Dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage Thus there is no point to change the article as you wish. --Destinero (talk) 16:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
You may want to look again at that 1913 definition you link to - specifically, definition #4 within it. Having said that, a history of a thing need not only reflect examples of that thing, but can discuss predecessors to that thing. (Which is not to say that the history section could not use some clean-up. Someone in good faith recently placed some material into it that makes it too U.S. centric, giving bits of U.S. history that are not relevant to the scale portrayed by their placement there.) Nat Gertler (talk) 15:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the other two users; your arguements have gained no consensus and have been exclusively POV. For example,

As far as I can tell in the last 5 years there has been a social political movement to change the meaning of the word marriage. I am against the over extension of the word marriage. I have my 1960s, 70s, 80s, and 90s dictionaries and marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. Somehow a judge ruled that definition should be changed. I am tired of all the P.C. redefining of words. I think that makes me a conservative, however on principle I am a libertarian, which means I am against laws defining marriage. My religious inclinations are vaguely diestic more than anything so I am simply a traditionalist. You can complain that the current romantic love definition of traditional marriage only goes back 100 years, fine but the monogamous definition of marriage goes back thousands of years. The evidence of cultures allowing same-sex marriage involves weak evidence or the mistranslation of words.

You are free to have your own opinions on matters but Wikipedia is a not a place for the promotion of select viewpoints as such is in violation of the NPOV policy. VoodooIsland (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2009

More like WP:SOAPBOX. And strong evidence that there needs to be a new rule for SOAPOPERA. Anarchangel (talk) 14:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
That particular statement was made in regards to changing a sentence in the 'controversal views' section of the marriage article. The original sentence claimed only religious conservatives were against the use of the word marriage for same-sex marriage. I was indicating that someone with traditionalist inclinations and few or no religious connections might also be against the extension of the word. The edits got a bit fast and furious because same-sex marriage supporters hate the word 'traditional' in any context. Rather than edit war over the word, I settled for 'social conservative' but only after I changed the social conservative article so it reflects my POV (so that it is not simply a political movement). Mrdthree (talk) 10:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Just in case no one pointed it out to you when you made the quoted statement, I should note that the "monogamous definition of marriage" isn't one that "goes back thousands of years"; the word itself doesn't appear until the late 13th century. Nat Gertler (talk) 14:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, "same-sex marriage" is the most commonly used term used to describe two people of the same sex marrying. You seem to object to the term; are you suggesting that there is a phrase for this concept that is more widely used? Wikipedia chooses the word or phrase that is most commonly used by English-speakers, the one that people looking for information on a topic are most likely to search for. I suppose that "gay marriage" is also widely used, but that phrase redirects to this article as well; are you suggesting that the title be changed to "gay marriage," or to something different? If you are objecting to the title, then I can't find the alternate title that you think would be more recognizable, more widely used, and more neutral. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 03:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Unless the title is changed to "Non-traditional marriage," I do not think they will ever be completely satisfied. VoodooIsland (talk) 03:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
My problem is the equivocation between union and marriage, and then union and relationship in the historical arguments. This allows any relationship to be discussed under the topic of marriage, but marriage is a unique institution with strict taboos associated with it (often associated with severe punishment). Mrdthree (talk) 10:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
John Boswell, in his book about same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe made the choice to refer to them as unions rather than marriage, in part because the term marriage post-dates the Roman legal arrangement that European marriage springs from. Regardless of the validity of once-upon-a-time resisting the urge to call them marriages, gay people have been calling their unions marriages for a long time, regardless of legal backing. Not to mention that several US states, and the entire English speaking country of Canada refer to the unions as marriages. It may be a "neologism" in the sense that it is "recently" coined and we don't all forget when that's not what it always meant. That doesn't matter. It's too late. It is an appropriate term for discussing the history of legally recognised unions NAMED marriages by the jurisdictions in which they are enacted. You don't get to decide what Canada calls same-sex unions. WE do. You just get to write the article about it. - BalthCat (talk) 08:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You miss my point. In tracing the history of same-sex marriage you appeal to pederasty and other relations that are temporary by definition. This does not report on the history of same=sex marriage. This is a rhetorical attempt to link a current movement to unrelated past traditions. Mrdthree (talk) 04:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Marriage between two people in terms of love is a neologism, so what? Historyguy1965 (talk) 00:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

Rmv a passage whose citation failed to verify the text. (WP:V) : "and that it encourages unhealthy behavior.-ref-BalancedPolitics.org - Same Sex Marriages (Pros & Cons, Arguments For and Against)" The cited source gives evidence of scientific studies of the lowered life expectancy of gay people; marriage of any kind is not a constant in the data against which the variable of life expectancy is measured, and therefore the studies prove nothing whatever about gay marriage. AIDS is the reason for the lowered age, as is clear just from following links found in the cite to this. Neither is lowered life expectancy to be described by the words 'unhealthy behaviour'.

I will be here a while, this article has basically been rotting since I left it. I will answer, (by conceding my point, conceding another's point, and/or contradicting or refuting others' points) all assertions that include reasoned arguments, preferably cited. Likewise, my reckoning of who is contributing to consensus excludes those that routinely refuse to answer my assertions. Unverified assertions or rhetoric might not be answered, as they do not further discussion. If the above caveats do not apply to you, remember, WP:AGF: I don't know you. I don't intend them as an insult, only a reminder of WP rules. If in doubt, check WP:EQ Anarchangel (talk) 14:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC) Modified for clarity by Anarchangel (talk) 08:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Unhealthy behavior is not because of SSM, it has zero to do with homosexuality and everything to do with UNHEALTHY BEHAVIOR. Historyguy1965 (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Some opponents of same-sex marriage also argue that the alleged historical precedence of the definition of marriage - the traditional understanding - justifies the need to protect it from the changes sought by advocates of same-sex marriage.<ref>Bill Bennett. "In Defense of Traditional Marriage." ''Newsweek''(6-3-96). Qtd. in [http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/bulletin01/06.html].</ref>
Opponents may say this. Who knows, maybe Bill Bennet says it. But he doesn't say it in the cited source. He says SSM is the thin end of the wedge, he puts up the red herring flags of incest, bigamy, and polygamy. In a discussion about gay marriage, he says that the 'promiscuity of homosexual males is well known'. Talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees. We're talking people who want to get married, here, and he is arguing that they shouldn't get married because they like to swing. But enough about the silliness of the material itself. It doesn't match the cite. I'd like some comments before I remove it though, and give someone time to find a cite that does reference the statement in the article, or it is simply WP:OR, or Original Research. Made up stuff. Bear in mind though that it would be best to get more than one cite, as it isn't really proven by just one that 'opponents' argue this. Or we can change it to Bill Bennet/whoever says.

Other opponents contend that the legalization of same-sex marriage, by altering the traditional definition of marriage, would harm families and society as a whole.<ref name=DMD> {{cite web |last=Brownback |first=Sam |title=Defining Marriage Down - We need to protect marriage. |publisher=[[National Review]] |date=July 9, 2004 |url=http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/brownback200407090921.asp}} </ref> Senator Brownbeck makes one point that is consistent and logical -if- you believe there is evidence for the statement that children do better in families with a parent of each gender. He doesn't say anything about altering the traditional definition of marriage, and therefore that doing so would would harm families. The only occurrence of 'traditional definition' in the piece is, "It is possible to lose the institution of marriage in America. And that is precisely the hidden agenda of many in this cultural battle: To do away entirely with the traditional definition of the family."
Again, uncited. Again, WP:OR. Again, I will give someone time to find a cite. Anarchangel (talk) 11:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox inconsistencies

The asterisked states under the "performed in some regions" heading don't line up with the discussion under the "notes" heading (NV isn't in there at all, and some say "pending in January(!) 2009. I don't know if some of that might have been blocked or otherwise changed, so can't fix it.

Also, "US States" might be better than "performed in some regions", since that's more descriptive. --SB_Johnny | talk 09:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


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